LEILA FADEL, HOST:
For a look at how the case against Nicolás Maduro and his wife is likely to play out, I'm joined now by Alex Whiting. He's a former federal prosecutor. He has also supervised prosecutions at the International Criminal Court in the Hague and is now a professor of practice at Harvard Law. Good morning, and welcome to the program.
ALEX WHITING: Good morning to you.
FADEL: So, Alex, all of this is quite stunning. The removal of Maduro from Venezuela by the U.S., now the U.S. trying him in a New York court. And as we just heard, he pleaded not guilty and then told the court he was kidnapped and a prisoner of war by the United States. So that raises the question of how Maduro's capture and how he was captured will be used in his defense. How do you think that will happen?
WHITING: Right. You're right, it is a stunning case. Ultimately, it will become a criminal case in the courtroom, and it'll be governed by the rules of the courtroom. But as his lawyer signaled, he will raise as part of his defense the question of his capture and also of his status as the president of Venezuela and whether he has immunity in that role. Both of those issues will be litigated as his lawyer signaled to the court and your reporter talked about. I think ultimately, they will both be unsuccessful. And then this case will become - it'll turn away from sort of the geopolitical intrigue of how he was captured in the larger dynamics to a criminal case, a drug case in a New York courtroom.
FADEL: The United States invaded Panama in 1989 and captured military dictator Manuel Noriega. He was tried and convicted in a U.S. court. What are the differences and similarities between that case and the case against Maduro?
WHITING: Yeah. There are a lot of similarities. He - Noriega raised some of the same issues about how he was captured. And under U.S. law - and this will surprise some people - but under U.S. law, how you end up in a courtroom doesn't matter for your trial. The court will not really be concerned about how you got there. What they'll be concerned about is once you're there, you get a fair trial. So whether you're kidnapped, whether you're dropped off, whether - how you're arrested, really won't end up being an issue. So that issue, I think, will fall away. And then, with respect, Noriega also raised the question of immunity, claimed that he had head of state immunity. But the court dismissed that because the U.S. government said that he was not a - he was actually not the president of Panama. He was serving in sort of the de facto role. So he didn't benefit from that immunity.
FADEL: OK.
WHITING: And in this case, while Maduro was the president, he wasn't recognized by the United States as a legitimate president. And so the same thing is likely to happen. The U.S. will tell the court...
FADEL: So the prosecutors could argue that Maduro wasn't Venezuela's legitimate leader because of what happened in the last election and accusations that...
WHITING: Correct.
FADEL: ...He stole it?
WHITING: Correct. And for that reason, he won't be entitled to immunity. So those issues will fall away. And then what happened in the Noriega case is likely to happen here. Noriega tried to bring up issues about the circumstance - the larger geopolitical issues, and the court prevented him from doing that and kept the case focused on the drug charges, and in this case, there are also gun charges and terrorism charges. I do think that there will be issues about classified information. That will come up in this case about whether there is classified information that the defense wants to show the jury that the court - that the government says can't be shown to the jury. So that will be litigated. But there are procedures for resolving that. So, again, ultimately, this case will become not a global kind of political case. It'll really become a narcotics case. And the question will be, does the government have evidence to prove the case?
FADEL: So these bigger questions of international law and the global order and whether it's legal to take a sitting president into a U.S. court will fall away. That's not going to play out, really, in this U.S. courtroom, you think?
WHITING: Correct. Those will be issues that get debated in other forums, you know, at the United Nations politically, diplomatically. But in the courtroom, those will fall away and will be focused on what is the evidence against him. Who - I think the case will be largely based on cooperators, other kinds of information. Do they - does the government have the evidence to prove the charges that they have brought against him? That will be the question that we'll be looking at.
FADEL: That's Alex Whiting. He's a former international and U.S. federal prosecutor who now teaches at Harvard Law School. Thank you.
WHITING: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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